The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
When Fury Road was originally going to be set after MMBT, how many years after was it meant to be set?
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
Same hear. I felt Max was just Mel Gibson being Mel Gibson in BTTD.mahenoguy wrote:I found Mels Character by BTD to be more slick than Mad . Even as a kid i remember questioning why he is even called MAD Max.
I think it's always been more of a case of choosing your audience and the shades of grey in between, that's why it appears like that. Without doubt, in terms of making box office returns, they made the right choice to go down the comic book rabbit hole and package everything up for a young-adult audience.mahenoguy wrote:If we cant handle fluid continuity in a film set in an alternate future , based of an alternate history then i'm afraid we are expecting too much from our writers and directors in general . They are sort of Damned if they do...Damned if they dont.
"Wrong, we fight for a belief. I stay."
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
I don't want to sound obnoxious but... Do you guys understand what MMBT is about (which isn't about liking this film or not)? You know, Bartertown and,at the end of the film, Sydney? Plus, Max in MM2 is already different from the one in MM1.
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
I'm hearing you Mad Serge...I think i get what your saying in that the world and Max seemed to be gradually recovering by the end of BTD and the next logical step would be a more progressed society ( and Max ) by Fury Road . But an important point of beyond Thunderdome is that years of rebuilding and recovery was all brought undone in 1 day , for Bartertown at least . Even Aunty's henchman look doubtful when she claims "we will rebuild " knowing without the knowledge of Master they are screwed . My point is , what gets us through even minor disasters is assistance from people not effected and in a post apocalyptic world , especially in Millers version , progress would be constantly setback time and time again .
As to the degenerated state of Max's mental health , he would have to be affected by these setbacks . If he was ready to rejoin society by the end of Thunderdome but every society he stumbled on failed ( his visions in Fury Road suggest contact with many people since Thunderdome ) I would guess he would be left in a very disillusioned , if not bat shit crazy state .I am probably looking at it quite convoluted , but I wish Max had been Fury Road Nuts from the moment Jesse and Sprog died ......Still have the world fall , rise and Fall again throughout the series , but have Max as this constant tortured figure throughout ....getting close to reaching out only to loose it all and digress everytime . Formulated and one dimensional? .....Maybe , but so are motorcycle crunching truck chases and i still love that too !
As to the degenerated state of Max's mental health , he would have to be affected by these setbacks . If he was ready to rejoin society by the end of Thunderdome but every society he stumbled on failed ( his visions in Fury Road suggest contact with many people since Thunderdome ) I would guess he would be left in a very disillusioned , if not bat shit crazy state .I am probably looking at it quite convoluted , but I wish Max had been Fury Road Nuts from the moment Jesse and Sprog died ......Still have the world fall , rise and Fall again throughout the series , but have Max as this constant tortured figure throughout ....getting close to reaching out only to loose it all and digress everytime . Formulated and one dimensional? .....Maybe , but so are motorcycle crunching truck chases and i still love that too !
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
That would work quite well. Keep Max's madness a constant so he seems paranoid when society is going well and vindicated when it falls apart.
However, it's worth reflecting on how Fury Road has a different interpretation of madness for Max. In the first three films, Max's madness makes him cold, calculated, and ruthless. He's not so much tormented as completely vacant. He doesn't try to run or escape when taken in by the compound dwellers. He doesn't have any conflict over bringing justice to Toe Cutter and his gang. He communicates and interacts with other people as needed but in a completely business like fashion. When faced with clear interest from the Warrior Woman, he doesn't react at all. He comes across as burnt out and human. In Fury road, Max is jumpy, paranoid, and contemptuous. He's also far more selfish, shown by his willingness to leave a group of people in the desert as their hunters storm in.
In a way, the original Max was empowered by his madness and that's what made him a compelling character. The new Max is constricted by it and falls somewhat short. Of course, I am polarising them somewhat, but it matters when that's the crux of the premise. It might be fair to say the new Max is far more mad.
However, it's worth reflecting on how Fury Road has a different interpretation of madness for Max. In the first three films, Max's madness makes him cold, calculated, and ruthless. He's not so much tormented as completely vacant. He doesn't try to run or escape when taken in by the compound dwellers. He doesn't have any conflict over bringing justice to Toe Cutter and his gang. He communicates and interacts with other people as needed but in a completely business like fashion. When faced with clear interest from the Warrior Woman, he doesn't react at all. He comes across as burnt out and human. In Fury road, Max is jumpy, paranoid, and contemptuous. He's also far more selfish, shown by his willingness to leave a group of people in the desert as their hunters storm in.
In a way, the original Max was empowered by his madness and that's what made him a compelling character. The new Max is constricted by it and falls somewhat short. Of course, I am polarising them somewhat, but it matters when that's the crux of the premise. It might be fair to say the new Max is far more mad.
"Wrong, we fight for a belief. I stay."
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
Good posts, mahenoguy and MWFV8. I wouldn't call it "progress", though. MMBT has a lot of depth. The movie is set after the "nuclear holocaust". People want to put an end to the state of nature. Bartertown uses humans passions and instincts for the greater good: it's a "safe space" where one can trade, go to a brothel, etc. And if you happen to have something against someone, there's the Thunderdome. So the violence is regulated. It also provides leisure for the masses. There's fuel for everyone now thanks to the pigs thus less reasons to fight over it. More importantly, people don't have the same mentality anymore: Aunty's henchmen may kill only to protect the city. Max wasn't willing to kill Blaster. Aunty also spares Max's life at the end of the movie (putting an end to the cycle of revenge). Aunty Entity might build another city and the children are creating "neo-Sydney". Anyway, the next logical step should have been "Max making peace with civilization", civilization that cannot be flawless. The thing is, I really think that Lathouris (the writer of the comics) didn't get it. There's then Fury Road which makes everything inconsistent: "back to the world of MM2 again" in which gasoline and water are now scarce commodities, Immortan Joe's citadel isn't "viable" (I mean, people will obviously turn against it, unlike Bartertown), let's not mention that he has, technically, enough manpower, firepower and vehicles to destroy everything we saw in the franchise, etc.
My theory on why George Miller stays ambiguous regarding the new timeline: the man isn't a moron. He knows that the new timeline is a mess and makes little to no sense. "Fury Road" really should have been a "stand-alone" or a reboot, instead of this.
My theory on why George Miller stays ambiguous regarding the new timeline: the man isn't a moron. He knows that the new timeline is a mess and makes little to no sense. "Fury Road" really should have been a "stand-alone" or a reboot, instead of this.
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
Max's madness is a very interesting topic, I think I'll make a video about this.
At last the Vermin had inherited the Earth
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
I always felt Barter Town and the Crack In The Earth were supposedly the ultimate tests for Max. In the first, he's presented with a new society which is built on capitalism and corruption and can become a made man. He thinks he can be like them and trade a life for something material but he can't go as far as killing someone who is effectively innocent and thus is cast out. He's then presented with a utopia in the desert which is based on passing down wholesome values where again he is held in high regard (near god like) but he can't convince the others that's the case and inadvertently makes them curious in Bartertown.
In the end, he effectively saves a generation from the bad influences of corruption and via and act of serendipity (reward for faith and self-sacrifice), he sends them back to where their passed down knowledge and values can have the greatest affect.
The bit in the end with Aunty Entity sparing him is really just a bodge since they originally wrote the story to have Max die.
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Regarding Max's madness, another point I want to make here is the reoccurring theme of collision and its importance in these stories. In all of these movies, the madness on both sides manifests to the point of a physical collision marking the finale. It's all about the need for righteous violence to equal evil violence and how the side of good needs to lose sanity to become empowered.
This is actually demonstrated in the opening act of Mad Max and pretty much foreshadows every finale to come. Max drives head on toward The Nightrider in a game of chicken. What we're being shown here is thematically important. Self serving evil cannot beat righteousness. The bad man's threats of death are powerless against someone willing to die for a cause. This is so impactful in the first Mad Max chase we see, it actually causes The Nightrider to have a complete existential crisis which goes on to lead to his demise.
This goes a step further in RoadWarrior and trickles down to the supporting characters. In the final chase, we see this contrast between what the good and bad guys die for. Pappagallo, the Warrior Woman, and the Mechanic all perish in the act of saving another. However, while this is heroic, it's demonstrated to be pretty much in vain since it weakens the good guys rather than the bad. There's an important message here and it's the question on if our humanity holds us back, a conflict we're seeing playing out in real time as Max himself deals with The Ferral Kid. What's really important here is that, with everything nearly lost, Max turns the tanker around. He initiates the collision and choses to take Ferral Kid with him into the head on with The Humungus. This is huge because it represents that Max isn't just saying "I'm prepared to die for this cause", he's saying "Myself and the next generation will die for this cause". There's no tossing the kid to safety. There's no shoving the kid into something protective. He doesn't even get to shield him. In the collision, they are both thrown into chaos and survive. It's easy to dismiss this as circumstantial given the fact they crest a hill before impact but this is the case for two reasons; it gives us the element of surprise and it gives both The Humungus and Wez the element of surprise. It also builds to the ultimate lesson of the story, that cutting off the head slays the dragon and the ultimate sacrifice must have maximum impact. Max defeats everyone because, as crazy as they are, they are not as mad as him. They are prepared to die but only in a selfish act. They are not prepared to go head on into what looks like certain death for nothing more than a cause. What's interesting about this is it's completely different to the original script which feels somewhat under-developed in comparison.
All of this is pretty much repeated in the end of Beyond The Thunderdome with the same effect. It strips the enemy of moral by highlighting their lack of purpose. It feels a little lazy in its lack of originality but was apparently written with the intent that Max does die for something much bigger than himself, effectively becoming the very legend the kids hoped him to be.
Fury Road kind of loses sight of all this and it's really hard to ignore, especially when we still get the cliche Mad Max ending. Firstly, the War Boys do believe in something greater than themselves and are clearly manipulated by a doctrine enforced by Immortan Joe. This is made highly complex by the the initial attack on the War Rig. We get to see the War Boys protecting Furiosa and her vehicle by sacrificing themselves in a voice that portrays them as heroes. They may be deluded but they are acting with good intent. The closest we got to this with the previous films are with Wez and Iron Bar Bessy who stand out because the whole fight is on a different level for them and we feel a degree of empathy with that. Compounding this is the movie's obsession with Nux and how we're shown that every War Boy is really a hero fighting for the wrong thing. This takes Fury Road completely off the tracks and is one of the reasons both Furiousa and Nux completely steal the show. Nux and the War Boys are in fact so compelling and heroic their mantra of "Witness me!" and "If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die historic on the fury road!" and "I live. I die. I live again." are now used unironically by fans as opposed to "You can run, but you can't hide" being repeated as a warning. This is most likely why the ending of Fury Road feels so unsatisfying and the opening chase with the Buzzards feels so much better. The Buzzards are much better enemies with their covered faces and self centred reasoning and the War Boys make great heroes with their complete lack of self preservation.
So, really Max's madness is only used as a character flaw in Fury Road and doesn't arc into empowering him to win in the end. What still get is a man who goes from selfish to compassionate and expresses his willingness to die by bouncing around the battle scene like a rubber ball.
However, where Fury Road does work, and why it has resounded so well, is it did something none of the previous movies did. It made almost every character comes across as mad. It went completely down the rabbit hole to the point Max actually becomes the voice of sanity. There is the thread of something addictively manic in its production that has inspired every creative who's been involved. Nothing really makes sense and even those running the show don't seem to have answers. It's so utterly disconnected from rationale and normality its every failure fuels simply fuels more anarchy and makes it evermore appealing. You genuinely feel the madness has leapt from the storyboards into the production team. It's like a mental asylum made into a movie. It's compelling because nothing really makes sense on any level and there's something liberating in witnessing all that madness unleashed.
In the end, he effectively saves a generation from the bad influences of corruption and via and act of serendipity (reward for faith and self-sacrifice), he sends them back to where their passed down knowledge and values can have the greatest affect.
The bit in the end with Aunty Entity sparing him is really just a bodge since they originally wrote the story to have Max die.
---
Regarding Max's madness, another point I want to make here is the reoccurring theme of collision and its importance in these stories. In all of these movies, the madness on both sides manifests to the point of a physical collision marking the finale. It's all about the need for righteous violence to equal evil violence and how the side of good needs to lose sanity to become empowered.
This is actually demonstrated in the opening act of Mad Max and pretty much foreshadows every finale to come. Max drives head on toward The Nightrider in a game of chicken. What we're being shown here is thematically important. Self serving evil cannot beat righteousness. The bad man's threats of death are powerless against someone willing to die for a cause. This is so impactful in the first Mad Max chase we see, it actually causes The Nightrider to have a complete existential crisis which goes on to lead to his demise.
This goes a step further in RoadWarrior and trickles down to the supporting characters. In the final chase, we see this contrast between what the good and bad guys die for. Pappagallo, the Warrior Woman, and the Mechanic all perish in the act of saving another. However, while this is heroic, it's demonstrated to be pretty much in vain since it weakens the good guys rather than the bad. There's an important message here and it's the question on if our humanity holds us back, a conflict we're seeing playing out in real time as Max himself deals with The Ferral Kid. What's really important here is that, with everything nearly lost, Max turns the tanker around. He initiates the collision and choses to take Ferral Kid with him into the head on with The Humungus. This is huge because it represents that Max isn't just saying "I'm prepared to die for this cause", he's saying "Myself and the next generation will die for this cause". There's no tossing the kid to safety. There's no shoving the kid into something protective. He doesn't even get to shield him. In the collision, they are both thrown into chaos and survive. It's easy to dismiss this as circumstantial given the fact they crest a hill before impact but this is the case for two reasons; it gives us the element of surprise and it gives both The Humungus and Wez the element of surprise. It also builds to the ultimate lesson of the story, that cutting off the head slays the dragon and the ultimate sacrifice must have maximum impact. Max defeats everyone because, as crazy as they are, they are not as mad as him. They are prepared to die but only in a selfish act. They are not prepared to go head on into what looks like certain death for nothing more than a cause. What's interesting about this is it's completely different to the original script which feels somewhat under-developed in comparison.
All of this is pretty much repeated in the end of Beyond The Thunderdome with the same effect. It strips the enemy of moral by highlighting their lack of purpose. It feels a little lazy in its lack of originality but was apparently written with the intent that Max does die for something much bigger than himself, effectively becoming the very legend the kids hoped him to be.
Fury Road kind of loses sight of all this and it's really hard to ignore, especially when we still get the cliche Mad Max ending. Firstly, the War Boys do believe in something greater than themselves and are clearly manipulated by a doctrine enforced by Immortan Joe. This is made highly complex by the the initial attack on the War Rig. We get to see the War Boys protecting Furiosa and her vehicle by sacrificing themselves in a voice that portrays them as heroes. They may be deluded but they are acting with good intent. The closest we got to this with the previous films are with Wez and Iron Bar Bessy who stand out because the whole fight is on a different level for them and we feel a degree of empathy with that. Compounding this is the movie's obsession with Nux and how we're shown that every War Boy is really a hero fighting for the wrong thing. This takes Fury Road completely off the tracks and is one of the reasons both Furiousa and Nux completely steal the show. Nux and the War Boys are in fact so compelling and heroic their mantra of "Witness me!" and "If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die historic on the fury road!" and "I live. I die. I live again." are now used unironically by fans as opposed to "You can run, but you can't hide" being repeated as a warning. This is most likely why the ending of Fury Road feels so unsatisfying and the opening chase with the Buzzards feels so much better. The Buzzards are much better enemies with their covered faces and self centred reasoning and the War Boys make great heroes with their complete lack of self preservation.
So, really Max's madness is only used as a character flaw in Fury Road and doesn't arc into empowering him to win in the end. What still get is a man who goes from selfish to compassionate and expresses his willingness to die by bouncing around the battle scene like a rubber ball.
However, where Fury Road does work, and why it has resounded so well, is it did something none of the previous movies did. It made almost every character comes across as mad. It went completely down the rabbit hole to the point Max actually becomes the voice of sanity. There is the thread of something addictively manic in its production that has inspired every creative who's been involved. Nothing really makes sense and even those running the show don't seem to have answers. It's so utterly disconnected from rationale and normality its every failure fuels simply fuels more anarchy and makes it evermore appealing. You genuinely feel the madness has leapt from the storyboards into the production team. It's like a mental asylum made into a movie. It's compelling because nothing really makes sense on any level and there's something liberating in witnessing all that madness unleashed.
"Wrong, we fight for a belief. I stay."
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
"Fury Road's Max is a new Max with a new backstory I hope to tell someday"Mad Serge wrote: "Fury Road" really should have been a "stand-alone" or a reboot, instead of this.
"Fury Road is a return to Max's world but under different circumstances."
I'm not sure what part of "Fury Road is a reboot' you are not understanding.
Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.
Do you understand english? For the record, I don't care about your "headcanon". Taipan already responded... To you:AquaCola wrote:"Fury Road's Max is a new Max with a new backstory I hope to tell someday"Mad Serge wrote: "Fury Road" really should have been a "stand-alone" or a reboot, instead of this.
"Fury Road is a return to Max's world but under different circumstances."
I'm not sure what part of "Fury Road is a reboot' you are not understanding.
Plus, Nico Lathouris (the writer of the comics) also co-wrote the movie Fury Road (I know that AquaCola doesn't care about the facts though).Taipan wrote:AquaCola:
The comics timeline is canon. It's a new timeline made for Fury Road with Tom Hardy (i like to call it the alternative timeline, as opposed to the old one created for the original trilogy with Mel), so they retroactively put Tom Hardy in all of the previous movies etc, according to it, Fury Road takes place after Thunderdome.
Please watch this video to find out what Fury Road really is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU5wCx5pG88